But, baby...
Jan. 3rd, 2009 08:24 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sacredchaoI just spotted a link to this and I'm a bit disturbed at the strength of my own reaction to it in some ways.
I'm not sure whether to be relieved that it's not my imagination, or despair that the default assumption is that I'm an arrogant, self-centred prick whose primary concern in life is to get his own way and screw the rest of you. I resent the assumption that I think I'm entitled to take what I want. I resent the assumption that if I think someone's attractive, that automatically means that I'm not interested in any other facet of their being and that my main or only reason far talking with them is in the hope of using them as a living breathing masturbatory aid. I resent being told that by virtue of my gender I'm expected to be a target for rage and suspicion and that moreover I'm expected to accept this as my just desserts and that this involves being not simply dismissed or infantilised but also actively demonised. Does this count as making the conversation all about me?
Having said all that I can of course (and could before this) see why that is. I see the men that do this kind of crap and foster those assumptions and they're fucking everywhere. The thing that I hate, that I truly truly loathe, is that this is the behaviour that seems to be rewarded in so many ways. Be pushy, take what you think the world owes you, and bull through objections by virtue of obliviousness and a thick skin and you ultimately get what you want. Try to do the right thing, examine the other person's point of view and consider how your actions affect others and you're still considered an arsehole until you've somehow comprehensively proven otherwise but you'll miss out on the relationships, careers and other tangible aspirations that the bastards of this world learn to take for granted because they appear to be so readily available. You'll have your personal integrity of course, but don't expect anyone to believe that that's the case.
It's a horrible set of assumptions, made all the more horrible by the fact that I can see how they come about. That's not saying in any way that they're not totally real and valid and based completely on real life experiences. But what this essentially says is "No, no, you haven't been paranoid for the last couple of decades, we really do distrust you on sight." The thing is, I really did think I was just being paranoid and that I was making social mistakes beyond simply being in possession of a penis. So this isn't dismissal or defense or me waving my hands and bleating that no, really, I'm not like that. This is me realising just how broken we really are and that there are far too many people completely disinterested in picking up the pieces.
This is not to say that I'm going to throw my hands up in the air in disgust and be an arsehole because, hey, that's where the money is right? No, I have friends and family and a gorgeous wife who know me better than that and the very notion of just barging through people makes me queasy. I'll probably keep explaining things but, you know, it's not because you're a girl. Guys do that to other guys as well. I don't know if other guys do it differently to girls than to guys just because they're girls but I don't. Fabulous prizes to those who can unravel that syntax on the first try. I nearly just closed this whole post and didn't put it up on several occasions. As that post states:
"Does this make you angry? Does it make you feel upset? Do you feel like your right to speak, like your right to be heard, has been silenced?
That's the space many women live in all the time. And we can't put it down and go back to a place where that silencing doesn't exist the way you can. Because for us, the conversation you just took over was that space, and we are sick and tired of repeating this fact over and over and over again."
There's that thought in the back of my mind that what I'm doing here is just that. I'm talking about me, about how this impacts me as a man and how I feel that that's unreasonable even if I can't offer any kind of idea on how or why it could or even should be different. In the face of what that whole post was about this seems entirely the wrong response and even now I'm wondering if I'll actually hit the button to post this. Ultimately though, I suppose what I'm saying here is that a lot of men do get it, they do understand or at least try to as far as someone not directly in the path of something like this can and they are incredibly frustrated by the fact that it's something that we have essentially as little influence over as you do. We don't have the ability to change the behaviour of an arsehole any more than you do. We could try saying "Hey, you're making me look dreadful here." but at best we get laughed at and at worst we get kicked into hospitalisation. Leading by example is even less effective because, after all, everyone knows that all men are only after one thing, right? I'm open to suggestions, I really am, but this all seems to be lose/lose and it should never have been a competition to start with.
I'm not sure whether to be relieved that it's not my imagination, or despair that the default assumption is that I'm an arrogant, self-centred prick whose primary concern in life is to get his own way and screw the rest of you. I resent the assumption that I think I'm entitled to take what I want. I resent the assumption that if I think someone's attractive, that automatically means that I'm not interested in any other facet of their being and that my main or only reason far talking with them is in the hope of using them as a living breathing masturbatory aid. I resent being told that by virtue of my gender I'm expected to be a target for rage and suspicion and that moreover I'm expected to accept this as my just desserts and that this involves being not simply dismissed or infantilised but also actively demonised. Does this count as making the conversation all about me?
Having said all that I can of course (and could before this) see why that is. I see the men that do this kind of crap and foster those assumptions and they're fucking everywhere. The thing that I hate, that I truly truly loathe, is that this is the behaviour that seems to be rewarded in so many ways. Be pushy, take what you think the world owes you, and bull through objections by virtue of obliviousness and a thick skin and you ultimately get what you want. Try to do the right thing, examine the other person's point of view and consider how your actions affect others and you're still considered an arsehole until you've somehow comprehensively proven otherwise but you'll miss out on the relationships, careers and other tangible aspirations that the bastards of this world learn to take for granted because they appear to be so readily available. You'll have your personal integrity of course, but don't expect anyone to believe that that's the case.
It's a horrible set of assumptions, made all the more horrible by the fact that I can see how they come about. That's not saying in any way that they're not totally real and valid and based completely on real life experiences. But what this essentially says is "No, no, you haven't been paranoid for the last couple of decades, we really do distrust you on sight." The thing is, I really did think I was just being paranoid and that I was making social mistakes beyond simply being in possession of a penis. So this isn't dismissal or defense or me waving my hands and bleating that no, really, I'm not like that. This is me realising just how broken we really are and that there are far too many people completely disinterested in picking up the pieces.
This is not to say that I'm going to throw my hands up in the air in disgust and be an arsehole because, hey, that's where the money is right? No, I have friends and family and a gorgeous wife who know me better than that and the very notion of just barging through people makes me queasy. I'll probably keep explaining things but, you know, it's not because you're a girl. Guys do that to other guys as well. I don't know if other guys do it differently to girls than to guys just because they're girls but I don't. Fabulous prizes to those who can unravel that syntax on the first try. I nearly just closed this whole post and didn't put it up on several occasions. As that post states:
"Does this make you angry? Does it make you feel upset? Do you feel like your right to speak, like your right to be heard, has been silenced?
That's the space many women live in all the time. And we can't put it down and go back to a place where that silencing doesn't exist the way you can. Because for us, the conversation you just took over was that space, and we are sick and tired of repeating this fact over and over and over again."
There's that thought in the back of my mind that what I'm doing here is just that. I'm talking about me, about how this impacts me as a man and how I feel that that's unreasonable even if I can't offer any kind of idea on how or why it could or even should be different. In the face of what that whole post was about this seems entirely the wrong response and even now I'm wondering if I'll actually hit the button to post this. Ultimately though, I suppose what I'm saying here is that a lot of men do get it, they do understand or at least try to as far as someone not directly in the path of something like this can and they are incredibly frustrated by the fact that it's something that we have essentially as little influence over as you do. We don't have the ability to change the behaviour of an arsehole any more than you do. We could try saying "Hey, you're making me look dreadful here." but at best we get laughed at and at worst we get kicked into hospitalisation. Leading by example is even less effective because, after all, everyone knows that all men are only after one thing, right? I'm open to suggestions, I really am, but this all seems to be lose/lose and it should never have been a competition to start with.
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Anyone Who Would use A Word Like Heterocentrism...
Date: 2009-01-03 01:37 pm (UTC)"Look, I'm a Humanities Graduate With Issues."
And the best way to deal with women like that is not to play. At all. As in, nope, I'm sorry, but I don't want to play the Everything I Do Is Wrong game. Because it sucks. So no, I don't want to know you. There is nothing any straight man can do for you but grovel and we don't want to do that. Even if we do, we are then diagnosed with passive-aggressive syndrome. You can't win; and yes, it is lose/lose all the way, as you said.
As Prof Stephen Hicks put it:
Postmodernism means playing Iago to Western Civilization's Othello.
Rule 1: Don't be Othello. Women who rant in this way are the reason that Humanities departments are being closed down even as we speak. I regret this. And have written articles about it. But it's a fact of life, and they, like the Ayatollahs, are on the way out. Also like the Ayatollahs, they don't even realize it yet. Unlike the Ayatollahs, she is probably a halfway decent person underneath the poisonous claptrap she writes. We just have to wait for her to work her way through her issues and join the human race. I hope she makes it.
Re: Anyone Who Would use A Word Like Heterocentrism...
Date: 2009-01-03 07:08 pm (UTC)If you don't agree with the posts, back up your arguments. Point, counterpoint. Otherwise you're simply sneeringly dismissing something that doesn't fit what you've decided the world is like, (with an attack on the writer, no less!) which does neither you nor the subject matter any favours whatsoever.
Re: OK I'll Be That Guy then....
Date: 2009-01-04 08:30 am (UTC)Amende Honorable?
Date: 2009-01-11 12:03 pm (UTC)What I thought: this is part of the pomo war on the alleged Anglospheric anthropocentric hegemony. And I'm on the other side in that war.
What everyone else thinks: No, this is all about one woman's cri de coeur against bone-headed guys who can't take a hint and will not respect other people's personal space. And no, I don't want to be on their side at all, in any way whatsoever. I am informed that I don't do this at all, and neither do the guys I hang out with. But I do know, or at least ought to know, that there are millions of guys who do, and I ought not to pretend that this is not the case.
When I'm in a minority of one, I will generally (though not always) yield the field. As I do so now. You were perfectly right to leap to the defence of your friend, and I salute you, and apologize herewith. Cheers.
Re: Amende Honorable?
Date: 2009-01-11 09:45 pm (UTC)Re: Amende Honorable?
Date: 2009-01-12 01:45 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-03 07:01 pm (UTC)Incoherent frustration and rage seem to be the default reaction to this, from what I've seen. Either that or shameful, slightly dodgy attempts at self-justification.
"No, no, you haven't been paranoid for the last couple of decades, we really do distrust you on sight."
You are a wonderfully friendly man. And a friendly man is a good thing. However, a friendly woman is such with the eventual expectation from others that they will bend over for it...and a friendly man is usually looking for something in return. You think the whole "ulterior motive" thing is fucked up in society in general? It gets really fun when you involve the expectations and powerplays between males and females.
A good way to see if it ever was "just you" or this fucked up mindset is to think back on the women you were friendliest (JUST friends, with or without vague plans of moving forward) with. Did you meet them when they were in a relationship and therefore "off the market"? How about those that wouldn't give you the time of day just for a friendly smile?
It's fucking insane. And worse, it's fuelling its own problem as more and more men become frustrated at this shit and you end up with the few arseholes that break out when drunk or simply can't control themselves, which of course sets the alarm barriers even higher for next time for women, which of course leads to the paranoia and default dismissal, and the money and the dancing girls...
I'll probably keep explaining things but, you know, it's not because you're a girl. Guys do that to other guys as well. I don't know if other guys do it differently to girls than to guys just because they're girls but I don't.
At the risk of using the phrase "white male privilege *gag* Well, that. Have you ever had someone explain something to you that you're damned well aware of, despite your attempts to derail them, all the time treating you like you're either some small child who needs a pat on the head and a lolly for being rather precocious, or with thinly veiled patronising contempt? or ANY task that falls outside the purview of nail polish and heels? (The linked Men Who Explain Things is a brilliant example of this.)
Not that I'm saying you've ever done this at all, not that I've ever seen, anyrate. You have a wonderful habit of dropping informative bon mots into a conversation as part of the conversation, and not a controlling measure :)
Don't get me wrong, anyone who refuses a simple offer of help when it's needed is a pure fool, but there is a world of difference between casually asking "Need a hand?" and coming up unsolicited and attempting to lift all that poor hard responsibility from someone's weak frail female shoulders. I've had the latter happen to me when I was halfway up a tree with a pruning saw taking down large branches.
It did not end well. And I think I invented several new curse words.
The world is broken, and your post is a bit self-centred to your worldview, but then again, that IS your world, so what other view is it going to default to? :P The sad thing is the details you're complaining about are the backlash of what has become standard, institutionalised, unthinking idiocy
(apologies if this is all over the place, falling asleep. Again :P)
(no subject)
Date: 2012-11-20 10:15 am (UTC)